Q: How do you feel about wearing uniforms at school? Many schools do so but this is not done at the CAWU Learning Center
Leila: This is an old discussion. For me, when I was a child I used to wear a uniform at school. For me, it is better because before coming to school I was never having to think of what I would wear and you know, you are not worried about what teachers are going to say about the way you dress. You just wear the uniform and none will know anything about you.
Victoria: Sometimes, before school, I spend hours just because of my outfit.
Q: And do you think that uniforms are especially important at a younger age?
Leila: Yes, for me if children wear a uniform they get the sense that they are going to school. They distinguish whether they are going out with family and friends or if they have the responsibility to go to school.
Q: How would you feel about going to an Egyptian school? Would you like it?
All students together say no
Leila: I went to a private language school, and it was good, but if you ask me if I would go to a typical public Egyptian school, the answer would be no. The curriculum there and the way they teach is not that good. You know the Egyptian curriculum is not that bad if you are good at memorizing everything, even in English you need to memorize. They give you exactly something to memorize and in the exam, you just copy and paste, and then you pass. In that way, you will never learn, you will not learn to write on your own, not even think on your own.
Diana: You know, Ramon, my brother, is good at memorizing.
Leila: Yes, I can remember at the beginning he told me can you write something and we just copy? And I was like, No! (hahahhaha)
Victoria: At African Hope, it was like that. The Sudanese curriculum is about memorizing, you never write in your own way, we needed to write exactly what was in the book.
Leila: That is easier for teachers because they do not have to read each paper, just the keywords are the same, and they give you the grades.
Q: And what about public schools being crowded?
Leila: Public schools are super crowded, there are like 40 students in the same class.
Diana: You know, in Sudan we used to be with 70 students in the same class. (omg everyone)
Leila: But you know, for international schools it is different, in mine we were around 10 students in the class.
Victoria: At African Hope, we used to be with 30 students in a class.
Q: That is still a lot
Everyone: yes yes yes.
Q: Jehan enters. Hey Jehan, do you go to an Egyptian school?
Jean: Yes, to a private one though.
Leila: This is different. If you go to a public school it is too crowded and you will never understand anything.
Jehan: I go to an international school and I would never go to a public school. You know the school Al-Azhar, you cannot enter, you go inside there and you do not come out.
Q: Al-Azhar is Islamic, right?
Jehan: Yes, it is even compulsory to wear a hijab there. It is an Islamic school. They will teach you the Qur’an and everything about Islam and other subjects.
Q: But if you are Christian do you know if you are allowed to go in?
Jehan: I think so as long as you follow their rules, wear a hijab and read the Qur’an. [CH: this is not true, one needs to be Muslim]
Simona: And there are going to be a lot of Egyptian boys harassing you and touching you.
Q: And would you like to be in a school that has no religious bias?
All answered in union: No.
Leila: My school was Christian but they were not that strict.
Victoria: Oh, but you are Muslim, but yes African Hope was also religious
Q: Did you pray there and sing religious songs?
Victoria: Yes, I remember that in every grade we were praying, and then we went to class.
Simona: Even in class we prayed, I remember being in class like this.
Diana: Yes, in Zamalek at St Joseph’s Learning center it was the same. Before entering class we stood in a row praying.
Leila: in my school, we sang songs for Christmas, some about Christ but others about Santa Claus, but as we had both Christians and Muslims they did not force anyone to participate.
Victoria: At African Hope, all students needed to sing songs, also the Muslim students.
Q: Are you allowed to wear a hijab in a Christian school?
Simona: Yes, they can. Some Muslim students were hiding so they would not join in praying.
Victoria: Yes, I remember in African Hope when Hassna was on the balcony hiding for not praying.
Leila: Yes, that is why it is better not to go to a religious school.
Q: And do you like to be in a mixed school where boys and girls are together?
All together: Yes, of course
Diana: I used to hang out with guys mostly.
Simona: Really? Yeah.
Victoria: What I like is that we are all a group of friends.
Q: Have you been to any other learning center?
Simona: I went to Little Step. It was decent, you know, not bad, but the thing is that the teachers there were not professional. They were chatting too much with you and trying to get into your life. They were asking questions such as, why are you wearing lip gloss, and for who?
Victoria: I hate it when teachers do that. On a certain day, Lydia and I put on lip gloss when he (name of the teacher) saw me and asked me.
Diana: Even when a student was absent he always asked you why, it is not his business.
Victoria: This is even worse!
Q: Well girls, are there any subjects that you are missing in your curriculum?
Victoria: I would like to do theater.
Simona: Maybe art.
Jehane: I am not really creative so…
Q: Maybe you are not because they never gave you the opportunity
All responded: yes yes yes.
Diana: Yes, it is always good to try all subjects and then decide by your own what your preferences are
Leila: I cannot complain that I tried all the subjects of the school.
Simona: In Ethiopia, they gave these choices. We could choose if we wanted or not to stay after school and take extra stuff like math, English, anything at school, that was amazing.
Victoria: What I miss are sports, but where? I remember Principal Peter Mathias telling us that they were working on it, trying to make us go once per week to this sports place that we went to during summer school.
Q: How would you feel if they would change the curriculum at CAWU-LC to the Sudanese one?
Victoria: No, I would leave.
Q: Why?
Victoria: Because the Sudanese curriculum is just a waste of time.
Diana: I know people who have done this curriculum and at the end of the day they have not done anything. It did not help them to get any scholarships.
Victoria: I did this exam when I was at African Hope, in the 8th grade. I failed it just because of one point only and just because of the Arabic subject.
Q: At that time African Hope was not offering secondary education, where would you have continued it?
Victoria: You know, African Hope and StARS are related, so when you finish your 8th grade, you go to the Sudanese Embassy and take an exam for getting into Secondary Education. If you pass you go directly to StARS. If you do not pass the exam, you do not go to StARS. And then at StARS, you do exams for the 10th, 11th, and 12th grades. They prepare you for the exam for accessing university. Then in grade 12, you go to the Sudanese Embassy and you take your exam. Depending on the score you enter university or not.
Q: And what kind of subjects do you take in the Sudanese exam for entering university? Is it the same for everyone or does it depend on the undergraduate program that you are applying to?
Leila: I believe it is like the Egyptian one. It depends on the undergraduate program that you want to do. So you are choosing basically between two packages, the more scientific one, chemistry and math,s and then the social, humanistic one, where you do history, geography, and literature.
Q: But Victoria, the exam for entering secondary education at StARS was the same for everyone right?
Victoria: Yes.
Q: And how do you feel about the content and style of the Sudanese curriculum?
Victoria: In history, we just learned about Sudan, I mean it sucks.
Diana: Yes, I want to learn global history!
Victoria: You know, my brother had a friend who did the exam in both the 8th and 12th grades, and he passed it. Then he went with his Sudanese diploma to Germany to work. They told him this is not valid. So he had to go back to Egypt again, go to another high school, and take an international curriculum and the exams. You know, before entering the CAWU-Learning center, Mr. Kees agreed that we would call the families and see if they were accepted or not. And you know, I told my mother, if I am not accepted I do not want to go to school anymore. I would stay home, work, or do something else. And she understood because basically, I would have just wasted more years of my life.
Q: How would you feel about going to university at a public Egyptian university?
Victoria: No, it is all in Arabic.
Leila: This is not true. I studied English literature at Cairo University, so obviously everything was in English, but I know that education at a public university in Egypt is always in English. Even some Egyptians who went to public secondary schools complain about it because everything is in English and they cannot understand it. Public Universities in Egypt are really good, even sometimes better than private ones, because you really need high grades to enter, and if you do not have that grade, you just need to pay for entering a private university.
Q: Do you know if you can enter those public universities if you take the Sudanese curriculum and exams?
Victoria: Yes, I think so, but you know, we never really know how long we can stay in Egypt. It is not stable, we do not feel stable here. So that is why I think it is better not to waste your time trying to study a certain thing and then end up in nothing and studying at an Egyptian university, I don’t want to stay in Egypt my whole life.
Q: In regard to the language of instruction, some university students explained to me that teachers in undergraduate programs that are supposed to be in English often switch from English to Arabic. This makes it hard for those that do not speak Arabic to follow the class, can you confirm that Leila?
Leila: Yes, supposedly they should teach in English but they really don’t do it. The books, the reading materials, their notes, and the exams are the only things in English. This is what my friends told me because you know I studied English literature and language where we did not have this problem.
Diana: I think the same happens in Sudanese universities as well.
Q: What can you tell me about secondary education in public Egyptian schools?
Victoria: There are a lot of students, like in secondary when you reach the 12th grade. I was supposed to go to a public school. I think it is a public one, it is in French, and my brother was trying to get in this school for his 12th grade, and there were no students in class, actually going to class, as they were all taking private lessons and courses. I think it was called Bab Al louq.
Leila: Yes, once you enter secondary education attendance is no longer compulsory in public schools, just in private ones, and a lot of people when it comes the time to start secondary education decide to switch from private to the public for this reason, as they know that this will allow them to have time to take private lessons and be really prepared for the exam for accessing university.
Q: Did you go to another school apart from CAWU?
Victoria: Yes, to Little Steps.
Simona: Yes, me too
Victoria: You know, they used the Sudanese curriculum. I cannot deal with it anymore. And the English of the teachers was not really good, very bad. Most of the time we could not understand them.
Simona: Even the notes, when they were written on the board I could not understand.
Q: Did you have books?
Simona: Yes, but they weren’t helpful though.
Victoria: You know, some of the teachers were even writing mistakes because it is in Arabic and they translate it to English. You know when you translate something from one language to the other it is usually…There were also other schools that were doing the Sudanese curriculum in Arabic.
Q: And you Diana, in which school have you been?
Diana: I have been only at St. Joseph’s. I was there only for one year (2019/2020). I was there and the teachers, you know, did not explain very well, and some of them did not speak English at all.
Q: Were you taking the Sudanese curriculum?
Diana: Yes, Sudanese. We used to suffer buying books that we never finished. We used to buy a book for every semester, and we never finished it, and then we were supposed to buy another book for the next semester, it was expensive and a waste of money.
Q: Were you wearing a uniform there?
Diana: No.
Q: Are you interested in learning Arabic?
Diana: Yes, now yes, but earlier I was not, but you know, now I feel that knowing Arabic would give me much more opportunities. You know, they say that if you know one language you are one person, and if you know two languages you are two persons, and I want to be at least a three.
Simona: When it comes to Arabic I feel that among Arabic teachers there is a lot of judgment, even in my previous school. I did not know Arabic and they looked at me as being silly and gave me just some simple stuff and they left me alone. They did not even try to teach me Arabic. And even more, if you are a Muslim, they were surprised I am a Muslim and did not know good Arabic, how do you read the Qur’an then, they asked.
Victoria: When I was in the 6th grade, one of my teachers tried to teach me Arabic. He gave me extra lessons for two weeks and then he stopped.
Simona: Yes, when they see that it is hard for you they start mocking you. They start being awkward about it, and then it makes the students also uncomfortable..
Leila: And especially for Arabic teachers, most of them are also Muslims. Half of the Arabic teachers in Egypt come from the Islamic university Al-Azhar.
Q: Is it a requirement to come from al-Azhar for Arabic teaching?
Leila: Not really, in my high school, you know it was a Christian school, so one year we had a Christian Arabic teacher. The parents of the Muslim students started to complain with arguments as, we do not want her as the curriculum should also include the children memorizing the Qur’an verses in Arabic. So they were wondering how a Christian would teach the Qur’an to their kids. I remember that those parents made a big deal about it. And that happens very often in other schools, and this is why they already make sure that Arabic teachers are also Muslims.
Q: To which school did you go?
Leila: To St. Fatima.
Q: And how much were you paying? Are there affordable private schools?
Leila: No, I guess that most of the private schools cost more than 10.000 Egp, but the cheapest ones are just offering you the Egyptian curriculum. If you want to be an IGCSE student, it is much more expensive, you pay at least 30.000 EgP, very expensive.
Victoria asks Jehan: Did you do the IG?
Jehan: oh no, omg, IG is so hard.
Q: Is there a lot of bullying going on at schools, private or public?
Leila: Yes, there is bullying everywhere, public and private, and even if you are an Egyptian, other Egyptians will bully you.
Q: The teachers when you were in the learning centers, were trying to make you participate during the lessons?
Diana: At St. Joseph’s it was more about the teacher making the lesson and not making the students participate. You know, in Sudan I used to be a really good student, especially in Math. My whole life I have been good at maths, but when I came here to St. Joseph’s, no way, the teachers were not helpful, even if you were asking him several times, sir, I did not understand this, they would just respond like ‘you just do this and this and this and it will be fine, khalas, everything will be fine, chill’
Simona: I even found some teachers who told me, just google that, so why did they not respond?
Q: Do you feel it is important to have compulsory attendance at secondary school?
Simona: Yes, I feel it is important, as it forces you to come to school, and you know, when you skip school you really miss a lot, and then when you come back everyone has different notes and versions, everything is different, and you cannot really follow lessons well in that way, so you have to come.
Q: To which university did you go, Leila?
Leila: I got my certificate from a public university, Ain-Shams.
Jehan: oh yes, I want to study law there but the grades I need are so high, and how was it?
Laila: Well, if you want to make friends there you must be careful, I just had two friends in college.
Q: How much was your tuition?
Laila: It was not so much, it was around 10.000 Egp per year.
Q: What percentage did you get?
Laila: 96.
Jean: 96?!?!?! omg that is amazing, why are you embarrassed for a 96? That is much more of what I could ever do, I don’t know why you are not showing it off, I probably will get like 70%).
Leila: But why? You can get more!
Q: Are there bad universities in Egypt?
Leila: Not really, for example, Ain-Shams is really good and the scores that you need to enter are really high, but for example all the mathematical, commercial, and Arabic programs are bad. For example, the score that you need for entering Arabic is 55%, so all those who are doing Arabic are not really smart. But I think that public universities here in Egypt are even better than private universities because in a private university you pay a lot of money and at the end, you feel you are just going to a club. They care more about the external image, they offer you a food court, and the students just hang out there, they do not care about education that much.
Q: In St. Joseph’s did they give you lunch?
Diana: Nooo, we were present from 4 pm to 7 pm. We were not allowed to eat, not even drink, they used to put a trash bin there. It was a church, the building is a church, it does not look like a school, we were about 7 students in class.
Victoria: My sister went to St. Josephine African British school, just to get the common and the visa for my parents.
Simona: I also have a friend, Cristina, who also just went to a public Egyptian school to get a visa for her and her mum. She is Filipino. She still is enrolled but she does not go. She just takes exams for the visa. I feel that if you are not a refugee it is really hard here to get your papers fixed.
Victoria: Yes, I was born here too, right, and we just asked for our refugee papers in 2019. During that entire period of time, we were just living.
Leila asks Vicky: How did your dad come to Egypt?
Victoria: I really do not know that story.
Diana: I came here through the desert.
