Side A
Reinout Vos first introduces himself and tells Hulsman how he began his career at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and how he came to Egypt. Vos said that he studied history at Utrecht University, specializing in the history of Malaysia and Indonesia. After completing his Master’s degree, Vos completed a PhD concerning the role of the VOC (Dutch East India Company) in Malaysia and Indonesia. Vos applied after completing his PhD to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and he was accepted for the diplomat class. Vos’ first job at the ministry concerned Dutch-South African relations. Vos was sent by the ministry in 1993 to Egypt for a period of 3 years.
Vos was asked about what he thinks about the Egyptian economy. Vos said that the first thing he noticed when he arrived in 1993 was the poverty. The economic growth in Egypt was in 1993 almost 0%. Egypt was almost bankrupt by the end of the 1980s because Egypt held a huge amount of debt, was facing an inflationary crisis, and had no stable exchange rate. Egypt managed to reform its finances with help of the IMF at the beginning of the 1990s. The situation in 1993 was stable. There was no longer a black market for trading foreign currencies, but there was also no economic growth yet. Egypt started later with the liberalization and privatisation of the economy, decreasing the import taxes on products. Vos described Egypt as a developing country which is going in the right way. However, Egypt is not a very interesting country for Dutch investors because of competition from China and the former Eastern Bloc countries. Other foreign investors have found their way to Egypt, and Egypt has since changed into an emerging economy.
Vos was asked in what fields Dutch companies should invest. Vos said that Dutch companies should invest in banks and harbours. The Egyptian harbours have a lack of storage for goods. Dutch companies could therefore build container terminals in Egyptian harbours.
According to Hulsman, some sources claim that the Egyptian economy is improving with money from the USA and cancellation of debts from the Gulf States. Some scholars claim that the Egyptians didn’t put in a lot of effort themselves to improve the economy. Vos agreed with Hulsman’s statement that the cancellation of the debts was indeed a great benefit for Egypt. Vos also agreed that the American support for investment in Egypt is is great. Vos said that in 1996, the American support was 850 million USD. According to Vos, the American influence is limited. The main income for the Egyptian government is money Egyptians living abroad send to Egypt. Vos claimed that development aid doesn’t have a lot of effect on the Egyptian economy from a macroeconomic perspective. Vos explained some of the main sources of income for the Egyptian economy: the Suez Canal ( approximately, 2 billion USD) and Tourism ( approximately 4 billion USD).
Hulsman asked Vos how Egypt will improve and stimulate exports. Vos said that the Egyptian exports are very high. In the 1960s, Egypt adopted an economical system based on socialism. The goal was to replace import and export with local production. This lead to Egypt pricing themselves out of the international market. Vos said that the liberalization process of the Egyptian economy will take a very long time. Egypt is improving its exports. You can find, for instance, in the Netherlands, beans and potatoes imported from Egypt.
Vos was asked how Egypt spends the American financial assistance. Vos said that Egypt spends it primarily on infrastructure, telecommunications, improvement of the Suez Canal , the waste disposal/sewage systems, and electrical networks. Vos described Egypt as a good example for the world. Egypt spends most of the aid they receive very efficiently. However, Egypt is not dependant only on foreign aid. The main income for Egypt is tourism. Vos was asked if the poor also get some of that money. Vos mentioned one example. There is a family from Aswan who is working with tourism. Every time that tourism improves other family members will come and ask for money. However, people who live in the slums do not benefit from tourism.
According to Vos, the American aid will stop at some point in the future because Egypt has lost the monopoly of peace with Israel. Jordan and the Palestinian authority also signed peace agreements with Israel, and there is a chance that Syria will do so as well. The Egyptian government expects the aid to end at some point, but they don’t have a clear plan yet for what to do afterwards.
Vos was asked how the relations are in Egypt between the top 20 % of richest Egyptians and the bottom 20 % of the poorest. There is a huge gap between rich and poor in Egypt. In the Netherlands, the ratio of the top 20 % of the richest to the bottom 20 % of the poorest is 4 to 1. In Egypt, this ratio is 7 to 1. The ratio is 30 to 1 in some Latin American countries; this means that Egypt is not as bad as some other countries. The welfare system in Egypt was divided equal in the 1960s and 1970s. At this time, Egypt had one of the biggest subsidy systems in the world. Egypt has been criticized by the IMF for these subsidy systems. Sadat tried to change the subsidy systems, but this lead to riots. The poor Egyptians are dependent on subsidized bread. Vos said that Egypt needs to find a way to spend the subsidies in a useful way. For example, water and gas is heavily subsidized in Egypt, one of the results of this being that there is a lot of water waste.
Hulsman and Vos discussed investments in the south of Egypt. Vos described Upper Egypt as a different country. The main problem is the infrastructure. The roads are bad, the railway is not developed, and the Nile is not used for transportation. Upper Egypt is developing but very slowly. Fayyūm is a good example of this. Fayyūm is not really a part of Upper Egypt, although it is very different from Cairo. There are industries are developing in Fayyūm. One of the biggest projects in Upper Egypt is the Toshka Project. The Toshka Project is system of Canals design to carry water from Lake Nasser to irrigate parts of the sandy wastes of Egypt’s Western Desert .
Side B:
Hulsman asked Vos about what the opportunities are for average Dutch companies in Egypt, and what the Dutch embassy can do for them. Vos said that trade between Egypt and the Netherlands has increased. The import rates have decreased in Egypt, which has led to an increase of export to Egypt from the Netherlands. The embassy can find suitable agents for a company. There is also cooperation between the Dutch embassy, the transport sector, and the Energy sector. Egypt has a surplus of gas at the moment. It has been said that Egypt will sell the gas to Israel. This is a very sensitive subject.
World servants:
Hulsman went around Cairo with a small group in the evening. He mentioned that they visited Muqattam and that he found it very interesting, but that there was also a lot of poverty. It is important to visit these neighbourhoods because it is important to meet with locals. A boy by the name of Vincent has said that his friend Richard introduced him to the World Servants organization. Vincent enjoyed the three weeks he spent with world servants in Egypt.
A girl by the name of Brigit de Boer said that she realized during her visit to Egypt that people in the Netherlands live a very comfortable life. Brigit said that there was not enough time to finish the project, and that they had some troubles with the Egyptian secret service. The World Servants didn’t have freedom of movement in Egypt. Brigit described the conditions the World Servants lived in as being good, although nothing is similar to the Netherlands. The streets and even the pavement look different. Brigit is very happy with the results of the project they worked on. She mentioned that there is an existing cultural gap. According to Brigit, girls walk around naked in Europe and girls in Egypt cover themselves from head to toe. Brigit would love to come back to Egypt, but on her own because she wants to have more freedom of movement.
Vincent was asked his opinion about icons. Vincent said that icons do not suit his way of understanding Christianity, and that people should not make pictures of Jesus or the saints. Icons are just ordinary paintings to Vincent, and he said that he does not have any special feelings while looking at icons. Additionally Vincent says that it is impossible to know how Jesus looked like.
